Joan, if you are going to eliminate the cat and just do a head-and-shoulders (all these decisions apparently happened after I had turned off my computer so I'm just catching up), I would definitely go for the first of the two. Her position in the frame is more dynamic, and actually the lack of space on her left doesn't bother me at all. You have a diagonal created by the slant of her head and her chest that creates a nice dynamic in the rectangle. That dynamic is diminished by putting her in the center and balancing out the negative space on all sides of her. I can really feel the difference. If you put in more space to the left, you are really just creating dead space that doesn't need to be there. By contrast, that triangle of space to the right needs to be there. That is my opinion!

Alex

Hi Again!

I wish I had been able to keep up with this thread yesterday! The subject is so interesting to me.

First of all, I like the cat a lot. I think it's because I, personally, love my kitten who is my first pet cat, so I may just be biased in that way. Including the cat makes it more personal, special, and somewhat narrative to me. But, I understand how taking him out simplifies things!

If you are going to do it without the cat, I agree with what Alex said. The 1st one of the batch with no cat looks good to me, and I would not add any more negative space behind her, to our left.

Here is a really poorly illustrated idea if you want to keep the cat! (Nudge, nudge.) Maybe the cropping will work if you include one or both of your daughter's hands. I feel like the cat is floating, or going to fall off the scene in the 1st picture that you posted... there is visual tension because of that for me and that is why the cat is distracting me there. I think if you could use a hand or both hands to show that the cat is being held up, sort of frame the cat, and then direct the eye back up to the face, it would be a darling composition. Just the one hand that I have painted in would do the trick, I think.

Oh, and I hope that you don't mind me fooling with your photos. :D

Either way, I can't wait to see what you do!

Joan, it's easier for me to talk about what's "too tight" than it is to formulate a space rule -- though maybe there is one. The most important thing to remember is that these are essentially taste issues and how you, the artist, makes a selection based on all the choices out there. Lots of artists crop tight and it's part of their style; they make it work very well for them and the people who buy their work love it. Look at lots of portraits - not photos of people, look at paintings - and decide which ones look right to you. Do the subjects feel lost in space, or maybe lost amidst all their belongings, or do they maybe feel pushed up into your face? The most important thing to remember when working from a photo is that you are not stuck with the parameters of the photo. You are the boss.

As far as your photos are concerned, I'd go with a three-quarter view with hands because it will give you some practice painting them and you'll also have a three-quarter sample to show potential clients. Your daughter is beautiful, what a wonderful model you have here.

So much help!
 

Dear Alexandra, Lacey and Linda,

I woke up this morning and turned on my computer and was overwhelmed by all the wonderful help I'm getting from such talented artists on this project. My plan was just to do the head and shoulders when I went to bed last night, but now I'm thinking I'll put in that cat after all.

Alexandra,

I think you hit the nail on the head when you say this. I have been studying portraits on the Stroke of Genius site and yes, I don't want to put space around something just for the sake of space. I'll attach a little 12"x12" I did recently. Almost NO space around this girl with the glasses and braids.

Lacey,

Thank you for taking the time to fool with my photos! You have shown me how the cat can work. If it looked like he was about to slide off my daughters lap it was because he was. I think your idea of adding a hand somehow will solve the problem of the cat sliding off the page. I have a better photo of the cat which I'm going to try and use, I don't have photoshop so I've cobbled together my xeroxes from Kinko's to get an idea. I think this is going to work!

Linda,

Thank you for your thoughtful suggestions. I have taken your advice and studied some portrait paintings. I think my problem is that I like both, space and no space. I'm attaching a small painting I did of a friend (glasses and braids), she's a hip young woman and the close cropped format just worked for her. That was an easy decision. I guess I just don't want my portraits to be boring, and with that said I guess equal negative space around figures tends to make them boring? As you said, there are no rules, I just have to keep trying different things. I'm beginning to see where Photoshop could come in handy.

thank you all,

Joan

p.s. My daughter is wearing that wrinkled white shirt because I took this photo at 7:00 a.m. She already had on her dark blue uniform shirt for school and she didn't want to hold a white cat, so I told her just to grab anything and throw it on for a quick photo!

Cat or no cat?
 

Joan, I didn't want to force you into a decision about whether or not to include the cat, but if you are considering it I will admit I like this scheme better. (As Linda said, it's all a matter of taste, or money, too, in the case of commissioned portraits.) I think If you could get that other hand in at the bottom right, you are on to something. I like the lean of her body in the first photos, but the position of the cat in the first photo has an odd anatomical illusion of having two left front paws, so I would take more photos of the cat to get a better "read" of his/her body. Anyway, in general these are great reference photos and I think something good is underway with this portrait!

Alex

More photos
 

Thank you Alex for your reply. I think I can make the cat work, especially with so much help!

I have taken a few more photos, here are two.

I like the first one but I'm not sure what others would think? It certainly evokes emotion, laughter on my part when I see my daughter holding up that big cat. But I think a portrait should evoke some kind of emotion. And this isn't a commission, just something I want to do for myself. Though, point taken, I am trying to build a portfolio. I had my daughter stand and hold the cat for the first one.

In the second one my daughter has a nice expression, we've got the hand holding the cat and the cat in a pretty good position. Though his face could be better, I can fix that.

I like both of these as they are and wouldn't have to cobble together photos, which makes me more comfortable with this whole process. On, except improve on the cats expression in the first one.

Thank you, looking forward to what y'all think about these.

Joan

Last one
 

One last photo. I took the second photo and I cropped it some. What do you think? Maybe with some work on the cat, but how is this composition?

Joan

Here's my two cents on all the various subjects that have come up in this thread:

I think more space around a subject makes it look more like a portrait and less like a snapshot. I also think it's a bit more elegant. I'm tending to want to put more space around my subjects in my current work, too. Purely subjective, of course. Lots of empty space does make for a big canvas or a small head size, things that some of my clients would prefer to avoid, though.

I love cats. That said, lose the cat. At least that's my thinking. With the cat it becomes a double portrait and that means both subjects have to be posed properly, not looking awkward, not looking like they want to be somewhere else, etc. If the cat doesn't look great in the photo you won't be able to make it look great in the painting. It will completely distract from the excellent job you do with your daughter.

I recommend you use a tripod. Almost all the shots are blurry.

I'd suggest that you might want to consider stretching your own canvases. It's not hard. Pre stretched canvases generally are of an inferior quality, and also give you much less flexibility for compositions. Hardly any of my compositions would fit a standard size canvas.

I also highly recommend you get Photoshop, or some less expensive competitor, and a photo printer. Maybe you could ask Santa. There is an absoutely HUGE benefit to being able to size, crop, compose your own reference, in high quality color, whenever you want it. I literally couldn't work without it.

Keep us posted on how this progresses! I look forward to seeing how you work all these issues out.

List for Santa
 

Hi Michele,

Thank you for your post and all of your excellent suggestions. I think this is such an interesting subject, the idea of negative space around the model, I will be watching your portraits to see how you continue to handle this. I can see how this would be a dilema for your clients though, since not everybody has a home that can handle a huge portrait with lots of space around it and as you said, otherwise the head size may get smaller.


I have never done a double portrait and I've come to realize that a double portrait isn't just twice as difficult as a single portrait, there is some kind of exponential relationship going on here!

That one is already on my Christmas list. Although last night I asked my husband about a tripod I thought we had and I had it in my hands 2 minutes later. It's a little 'travel' type that only does horizontal photos, so I will be getting a new one. But, for today's photo shoot of my daughter, at least I'll have one. Thank you for reinforcing that I do need a tripod.

Ughh, all that time. I have stretched my own canvas before and I actually enjoyed it. I even sized them with the rabbit glue and then primed them with oil primer. What a process. I did 5 or 6 at a time. I know my painting ability and I need to spend the time painting, one of these days I'll go back to stretching my own canvas. But for now I think that's putting the cart before the horse for me.

Photoshop. I guess I should make that investment. Santa will have quite a list from me. I was thinking about a new camera too. I just got the Epson R300 printer and I love it. Though I can't figure out the 'tiling' method of printing out something larger than 8" x 10". I think I read in one of your posts that that's what you do.

Whew, that's a lot to think about! I have slept on this . . . for three nights now! . . . and my gut is telling me to keep this simple. Another photo shoot today (with tripod!) and I'll see what that gets me.

thanks again Michele,

Joan

Update
 

Okay, here is the update on the portrait of my daughter and cat. I'm going to reshoot using a tripod because the couple of photos that I like best are fuzzy. Yesterday (Thurs.) I had my portrait class and didn't get home until dinner time, too dark to take photos. But, at least I did some painting. Today, Friday, my daughter has a game and won't be home until dark. So, tomorrow is the day for the photo shoot. I find my artificial light set-up works better supplemented with some daylight coming in through the windows. And, tomorrow I'm going to pick the best photo and go with it! This is frustrating, taking an entire week to get a decent photo of my daughter and cat. I really had planned to paint her this week, not spend the whole week picking a photo.

I'm only going to paint my daughter and it's going to be a head and shoulders only. With the holidays approaching I don't want to get in over my head so I'm going to try and paint my daughter, and then my son, before Christmas.

Whew, getting a good reference photo is a lot of work. I know it'll be a lot easier without the cat. And hopefully next time it'll be easier. If I'm ever going to paint non-family members, I need to be able to take a good reference photo without having 5 photo shoots, don't ya think! :bewildere

I may try her with the cat again after the holidays.

Joan