Joan,

That's unfortunate, and I went back through the Critiques posts to see what might have been missed, but there was nothing there from you. I'm assuming that you're referring to the glazing question posted in the Techniques area in early December.

I'm sure it was frustrating not to get a lot of helpful feedback, but a number of possible explanations present themselves, including 1) the fact that very few of the practitioners here appear to use the underpainting/glazing method, so most members who read your post likely felt they had nothing to offer; 2) the few who do work by this method have written of it pretty extensively elsewhere (I'm thinking particularly of threads that Karin Wells has contributed to); 3) I have to imagine that it's an extremely difficult technique to explain verbally -- this is one where a good video, if not a workshop, trumps pages of written effort; and 4) as you said, this was in the build-up to the holidays, and I know I was overwhelmed at the time and I suspect many other members were as well (my recollection is that things were pretty slow in here during that time.)

Anyway, as to that painting, this is moot, but the request I'd like to make is that members assess the Forum over time and as a whole, and not on the basis of one or two posts or incidents. There's really no on-site, on-call "faculty," per se -- the fact that moderators may post as or more often than "average" is more by default or just personal availability or interest than it is a part of the job description. So there are just going to be times when satisfactory responses don't seem to be forthcoming. It's not personal. If it happens to me in a search -- and it has, just this past week, as I begged the gurus on a computer troubleshooting forum to help me out, to little avail -- then I try the next resource on the list.

I'm sure we'll have a look at some of the stylistic matters mentioned (though the intentions were good -- for example, a paragraph that runs to several column inches is far less accessible to readers than one broken into smaller passages.) There's not much we can do if no one who has an answer to a question doesn't also happen to be on the Forum and reading the question at the time.

So again, please consider this effort as a whole in assessing its value. Believe me, if unpleasant or disappointing events were each taken as deal-breakers, I'd have been out of here a long, long time ago. Learning that some members have felt excluded, chastised or just frustrated by certain incidents is nonetheless instructive and I'm glad it's come out in the open so that we have a chance to address it, as it's doubly disappointing to have remained uninformed until now of the reasons for the infrequency of some valued members' visits.

Gosh, Steven, you're hired! You're just so good with words. Thanks for a great post.

Joan,

If your question did have something to do with the underpainting/glazing subject, please give me the URL and I'll check it out.

Meanwhile, because I am rural I have struggled for years with my old 56K modem (that operated around 12K). Consequently it has been nearly impossible for me to navigate quickly on this forum.

In December, however, I got a satellite internet connection - and it is really speedy - when it works. Snow, ice and stormy skies easily shut it down. Of late, my attendance here has been uneven and I am sorry as I have not been able to catch up, let alone keep up.

Dear Steven and Karin,

Thank you for your kinds posts. It is people like you who make this forum a worthwhile place for me to spend my time.

Steven, you are absolutely right. I shouldn't assess this forum based on one incident just as I wouldn't judge a friend on one misplaced comment, or at least I hope I wouldn't. See what lessons I can learn that apply not only to painting! Thank you for that reminder.

Karin, your help has been invaluable to me. I didn't post my painting in the critique section because it wasn't finished, perhaps that was one reason why I didn't get much response. Thank you again for your kind offer to take a look at the post, I'll find it and then perhaps repost it within the next few days here.

Again, thank you Steven and Karin, you've made me feel very welcome here.

Joan

I guess we haven't been very clear or strict about the WIP and Critiques section. I've seen artists put works in progress into Critiques to get help along the way. So, the distinction isn't totally clear. Sould we rename it Works in Progress Critiques perhaps?

I have watched this thread with interest wanting to objectively look at what other members had to say regarding Cynthia

Cynthia,

I wanted to comment on the WIP section. I like using that section to get comments along the way when it can still help that painting. Plus, putting it there lets everyone know that it is NOT done, so it is clear that parts that look unfinished are unfinished.

I like using the critique section when I consider a piece finished as well as I can do it. I sometimes can't put the critiques to use on that painting, (if it's a commission and they want it) but I keep the advice in mind for the next one. Although, sometimes I can use it.

I like the distinction between the two sections. Is this how it was intended?

Count Me in!
 

I would have to engage in some "creative financing" to come up with the money, but I would indeed be willing to pay an annual fee to retain access to this resource. Heck, Steven's critiques alone, are worth the price of admission! I believe 35-40 dollars per year is reasonable.

It's not perfect, but it beats the heck out of every other alternative. As many others have already stated, there is NO other comparable artists' forum on the net.

I've been guilty also, of dropping by to read without logging on. In future, I will be diligent to make my presence known. :oops:

Beth,

[QUOTE] In a correspondence with Cynthia, I was told I was not good enough to become one of her SOG artists, because I had a problem with

Valerie,

I was not "scolding" anyone for not logging in. That's not the issue. I'm talking about people who get approved and never post a single time and never even visit again. In the admin controls, I can check the last time someone visited. Of course, you would have to log in and if you never logged in for a long time, yes, you'd be one of those puzzling situations.

Kimberly,

Yes, I would say so.

There are two things I believe to be true with regard to the Forum fee issue. The first is that certain artists, owing to economic hardship, should be exempt.

The other thing is that the rest of us should pay for quality, and this is unmistakably a high quality site. It is also a record of us all. Who knows what historians will make of this a hundred years from now? Some of the heated discussions of late may take on the same legendary proportions as say, Carravaggio

I am sorry Cynthia, I wasn't awear that you would consider this private since the way I understand things; you discuss all with your board. I would certainly consider it private for me, but since it was the underlying decision maker in the question you have posted here, I shared. Sorry if it upsets you. It's business, not personal. I would never post the original text.

I really thought there were artist here who felt like myself and it would be wrong of me to not point this out.

Beth,

The Board for the Forum has nothing to do with decisions about who is accepted on the main site. The Forum Board is only for Forum decisions. As far as a Board that approves or dispproves for the main site, that's a different set of artists.

Business, not personal? I'm not sure I understand that.

Beth and I have had conversations about being accepted as an SOG artist. I wish she didn't place so much importance on it. This is not the Royal Academy. It is an advertising medium, where artists pay for an advertising service. SOG acceptance will not make or break an artist. It will add them to a directory, and give them a nice looking web page. SOG artists don't necessarily get commissions from their association with SOG (I've been told this by some who are SOG artists), just as full color ads in major magazines often result in not a single commission. Each advertising medium is only a single cog in the overall self-promotion machine.

In my opinion, this forum is a major asset to anyone aspiring to be a successful portrait artist. It's far more valuable than being listed with SOG, and it's worth paying for.

Gallery vs. on- line gallery
 

To have a show at the china Art Gallery, artist needs to pay a minimum of 50,000 yuan, about $6,300.

To show one's works on on-line gallery, then profited from workshop and other ways, should the artist just walk away without paying any commission?

Many art magazines bored me. Judging by most criteria, considering its conditions, SOG is more interesting to me than almost all of these magazines.

Cynthia is on the right move, one doesn't have to let everyone command. As the world turns, you turn.

Many artists do, some do not. And, there doesn't seem to be any particular reason to it in some cases.

However, I also encourage the artists to see their web site as an online portfolio that is part of a whole marketing package. The thrust of each individual item contributes to the power of the whole.

This may be "out there" for some, but when I worked for Robert Schoeller, whenever incoming work started to drop off, we would send out mailings of his new work to people in our prospect file. Over the six years I worked with him, not one single commission ever directly resulted from those mailings. But, without fail, incoming work would increase. I kept statistics and graphs on key activities in the business and made business decisions based on those decisions. So, it was there, clearly able to be seen.

Additionally, there are benefits to having a web site beyond getting work directly from it. Most of the following is from the artists themselves:

1. Wm Chambers was ready to start a photo shoot at a new client. The client suddenly wanted to see his work again, but he had not brought a portfolio. Happily, they had Internet access and that solved the problem.

2. Gordon Wetmore was at a party and a guest wanted to see his work, but he had not brought a portfolio. The host had Internet access and the guest was able to view Gordon's portraits right at the party. Gordon got the commission.

3. Many, many artists have reported that having a web site brings them extra credibility with clients and prospects. The comment I get is that clients and prospects say delightedly "oh! you have a web site."

4. An artist's web site can be used as a PR and marketing tool. Putting up new portraits on a web site and letting the client be involved means that most likely they will tell family and friends and that's just that many more people who know about your work - you never know, one of those might commission a portrait later.

There are many benefits that have happened from magazine articles (Gwenneth Barth in International Artist, the artists included in New Yorker Family Guide) to workshops. Often a web site is simply a great tool to use in closing an existing prospect. But, I have found that the artists who are excited about their site and really use it (refer people to it, put it on business cards, send out announcements of their web site, etc.) are the ones who seem to have the most success. Those who sit back and forget about it, not as much.

Most of these are general benefits of a web site. However, re being Stroke of Genius, because of it's very high visibility, artists do get more traffic than if they are on a site by themselves. More traffic always means more possibilties. The name of the game on the Internet is traffic and more traffic. As well as family commissions, artists here have been contacted by the White House, the US Senate and the US Supreme Court and many corporations and other entities. I think it's pretty wonderful that these government places know about Stroke of Genius as a place for portrait painters. I've also been contacted by Tiffany & Co.

No, I would never say being on SOG would make or break an artist, but I believe there is a certain prestige in being associated with it that is recognized, otherwise we wouldn't be getting contacted by the likes of the White House.

Cynthia,

I didn't mean to offend. I just wanted to make the point that SOG is not a ticket to success, any more than rejection by SOG is a ticket to failure.

Jeff,

I understood that. I just wanted to give a more complete picture.

I think the need for having a website is a given these days, and I believe that Cynthia makes the most beautiful ones anywhere on the web. I tell other designers to check out her sites to see the benchmark of the most professional and elegant-looking web design out there.

I could have created my own site but Cynthia does it better and also maintains it without my needing to get involved in those headaches -- which gives me more time to paint.

It's amazing how terrible some artists' websites can be. If web design isn't your thing, definitely get someone who knows what they're doing. If not SOG, then someone.

Thank you, Michele. The newer ones are better than the older ones. Some olders ones are sorely in need of updating. But, some artists just put it up and forget about it - some I remind that we need to uprgrade their look, but it's hard to get the time for all

Please give me a moment to explain again what I was trying to say in my initial post. From what Cynthia and Jeff have said perhaps it was confusing.

The question: Would you pay a fee for forum access?

My answer: So would I pay to post here, no. Would I pay to look, possibly?

I agree with Cynthia, and thus the reason I answered the question the way I did, Jeff it is not so much that I put a make it/break it emphasis on being an SOG Artist, it is that I feel for an upcoming portrait artist, with a business sense, it is important to be considered here. I have my own website, but I do not have representation.

[quote] It occurred to me that I should not be posting critiques, since it is, in my opinion, silly for someone whose work is not par with the

I have no problem with a fee to participate in the forum. Meaning Members who pay can post and reply to posts. But I feel lurkers (those who read but not reply or post) should still be allowed for free.

After all it costs nothing to allow them to look. And if they are moved enough by what they read to join in then they should be willing to pay to play. And my many thanks to all the moderators. I know they all have had to put up with my bad spelling and poor punctuation.

I have not been that active as of late but I still like to stop in now and then to check up on the group. I also have had many pleasant replies both online and off line to post I have made and more then once it has made my day a little better.

The life of a working artist is not always easy to keep up so a fee even a small one is issue for me but I still would have no problem paying it.

Thanks All

Actually, it does cost bandwidth. The hosting charge is based on amount of bandwidth.

Maybe I've been misunderstanding something, but it seems the posting guidelines heavily favor uploading pictures to your server, instead of remotely linking (it says we should avoid using the [img] tag).

If we could host our own photos, wouldn't that cut down on your bandwidth?

There's a service at photobucket.com that allows remote linking for just this purpose.

This web site is definitely not part of ASOPA. What made you think that?

My question about membership has been answered.

Renee

Renee,

Cynthia is talking about those of us who are paying members of Stroke of Genius web page. We are paying Cynthia for our web site management.

ASOPA, Portrait Society of Atlanta, Portrait Society of American, Classical Realism, among other portrait art groups, all have links on the main Stroke of Genius page, but they are not "members" of SOG.

Peggy

And, ASOPA has a link to the SOG Forum. I do happen to be the web designer for ASOPA and have a close working relationship with them, but this site is in no way a part of ASOPA or any other entity.

Peggy, thank you for your reply. And Cynthia, thank you very much.

Renee

Jeff,
Because it's a far better reading experience to see the images inline with the post instead of having to link elsewhere.

But, again, bandwidth is only one and probably not the major issue.

As a member of many professional organizations, I think it is definitely not out of line to be asked to pay a small nominal rate for the administration of this site. We're talking what, $15? $25 a year? A pizza and beer? I'm frankly surprised that Cynthia has not broached this subject earlier.

My two cents, raise the price for members to $25 a year. Lurkers free.

Professionals and aspiring professionals understand the need for the fees.

It insures the continuance of this professional site...and the last thing I want to see is pop up ads to pay for the site. Free sites are festooned with pop ups. I'm surprised Cynthia has been willing to run this site at her own expense for as long as she has.

Peggy

I think it would be a mistake to convert this forum to paid membership participation before exercising all options. In my opinion, this should be considered only as a last resort, if the stated purpose is indeed to cover expenses, rather than to make a profit.

Many people have stated they would be willing to pay varying amounts of money to ensure the continuation of this forum as a resource, so why not give people the option of donating as they see fit. If successful, this approach would allow everyone to continue their membership.

In the event this didn't generate enough money to cover the forum

Why is that?

As mentioned earlier, those who could not afford to pay would be given consideration under a paid membership fee setup.

Nope, that's on a affiliate basis. I've made about $20 in commissions since that link as been up there.

When I'm talking about covering expenses, I'm including part of my time spent each year on various aspects of the Forum, which has been sizeable. And certainly, if a sizeable sum came in, I would be happy to share with the moderators. However, it's diffcicult to say an exact amount ahead of time.

For example, I've done nothing except Forum work the last two days. I couldn't have predicted last week that this would be the case. Also, we're in a situation where a software upgrade is needed in order to plug possible security holes that have apparently been bringing down the server. I don't know at this point how much time that will take, but it will be sizeble.

But, as mentioned in earlier parts of this thread, there are other reasons besides covering expenses to charge a fee.

Thousands of artists pay a fee to join portrait societies every year, for magazine subscriptions. And, as Peggy points out, an annual fee of $25 is about the price of pizza and beer.

I think it's always preferable to give people the option of participating out of their own free choice. I believe this is especially true when dealing with artists, who tend to be rebellious by nature.

I felt that if adequete funds could be raised on a voluntary basis there would be a chance to avoid upset and animosity. Also I think that if people are paying for membership there would be much greater expectations for more thorough critiques and feedback.

If we go with a membership fee, they will have a free choice whether to participate or not.

It's not my intention to create animosity, but there are realities that have to be dealt with.

So, basically you're saying that what the Forum has been so far is not of value or not of enough value to pay a nominal sum for - a sum that isn't more than what most people spend for a few drinks or a meal?

Since the Forum has started, I've put in hundreds of hours. I know for the people who come on, it looks like it just runs itself, but it doesn't.

I've been reading over in other places and many forums are starting to look at membership fees.

Hi Cynthea,

Just to throw in my two cents worth again.

I found this forum after following links from William Whitaker's website. I found his website after purchasing a SouthWest Art magazine for $18.95(aust).

I try to buy this magazine (monthly) when it is available in our newsagents. It takes a couple of hours to read it then it gets buried on my desk. It takes me forever to relocate an article in any magazine in my many heaps of magazines.

I can access any article on any topic on your site with a few scrolling movements of my hand and I spend far longer on here than a couple of hours once a month.

Where would you like me to send my cheque?

How sweet, Margaret. Thank you. Actually, the first step I will be doing is upgrading the software to the newest version. I've never upgraded since the beginning and that needs to be done first to plug up some security holes. Unfortunately, our pretty look will go away temporarily with this upgrade. I will have to reinstall all the customizations to get our look back. For a while, our forum will look like this, but our security is the most important issue: http://www.vbulletin.com/forum

Once the newest version is installed and I have the customizations reapplied, then I will implement whatever the new plan will be and any payments/donations will be implemented therafter.

Additionally, I will probably be adding in a spellcheck feature. It does not come with the Forum software and is an add-on fee-based spellchecker. However, this will free up the moderators for more valuable tasks.

Cynthia,

I am still lurking and keeping up with the conversation here on this subject. I see many ideas but I tend to agree with Marvin with the statement above.

I have found in my life that the two words "just ask" seems to go a long way if put into use. As a general rule I personally feel that the nature of people is that of decency,integrity,fairness and compassion.

I am simply suggesting that why not "just ask" for any donations and explain they are deeply appreciated. We, here at the Forum, are already familiar with the difficulity and work that it must be to keep a great site going. New members could read a note or letter of Welcome from you and a brief explaination of the time, costs and benefit that they will find here. I like all of the comparisons brought forth here such as the costs of subscriptions to magazines, books, Societies, etc., but to the layman out there, they may not already subscribe to all of these and after seeing all of the co-operation and hands on assistance here will possibly gladly give to the upkeep.You may find yourself very surprised at the help you will get.

I know that I personally feel a twinge at charging for some services yet when left to my choice I feel more freedom and will often choose to dig into my purse. It's worth a try at the expense of some hard feelings. :thumbsup:

Good Luck
Patt