Commission-WIP
 

Hello everybody!

This is a new commission that I am near (hopefully) to completing.

The photo that the parents gave to me is still in a frame and they don't want me to take it out of the frame, this made it difficult for me to scan or photograph to enable me to send the photo to you so please forgive the low quality photo.

I feel that the girl's face looks very posed, both in the photo and the painting, whereas the boy in contrast looks very relaxed, both facially and in his pose. I don't think that I will be able to do anything about that one because the photo is a year old now and any photo's that I may take would be obvious to the parents if I used them. Children's faces change so much in a year.

The other problem that I have is that the boy's jumper could keep me busy for the next few days if I went into detail. It is very sketchy at the moment, with a lot of the underpainting showing through. I quite like it at this stage and I feel that just a little 'tidying up' would be sufficient and I should leave it quite loose.

I would be very grateful for any advice/comments on how I might improve it .

Barbara :)

Hello Barbara,

I apologize for the long delay in posting a reply to your request for a critique. The problem you have is in your resource photo, in my opinion. It is very obviously a staged studio photo, with studio photographer lighting and posing. These things are not condusive to what a portrait painter wants and needs. What you need, for your purposes, in a photo is some way to indicate form and volume so that you can make the head come alive; otherwise, no matter how well you do it, it will just look like you traced and painted the photo. There are many ways to manage this kind of lighting and you should read all the materials on the Forum about lighting and photographing your subject.

I wouldn't be deterred from the fact that the children are older and have changed. If you take the photo yourself you will have much more control over the entire process, as well as get to meet them and incorporate their personalities into your interpretation.

I hope I haven't been too discouraging. Just about everybody who posts here has been given a photo like this one (or, believe me, much worse) and has been asked to come up with something.

Dear Linda,

Thank you so much for getting back to me. This has been a real challenge! I instantly disliked the pose of the girl in the photograph but loved the boy! Given that, I decided to give it a try.

I also took lots of extra reference shots to help me but the age gap was obvious, so consequently they weren't much help.

The painting is now propped up in my studio where I am 'living with it' and hoping that inspiration may come one day, however, I agree with what you've said, and the typical studio pose is what the biggest problem is, in addition to this, I don't think he was a particularly good photographer because the lighting is obviously in the front.

I have worked on it a little more and tweaked in a few areas, I think that it is nearly the best that is possible given the resourse photograph.

No Linda, you haven't discouraged me at all, you have really just confirmed what I already thought.

Thank you for taking the time to look and comment, it is much appreciated.:)

Barbara

Barbara Mae,

I believe you had a definite challenge with this using the one and only reference photo. To make it "painterly" could pretty much be impossible. However, you pulled it off BEAUTIFULLY!

You made a staged, corny, otherwise "boring" studio photo.... look great. In fact, I think your interpretation of their personalities look more interesting than what was staged in the photo reference. I also admire how you've totally invigorated the colors and gave this picture real life.

:thumbsup:

Geary

Barbara - I agree with Geary...I think you pulled it off great! I love the boy's shirt and the way you pulled all the colors into the background and foreground.

Dear Geary,

Thank you so much.

Yes, I do believe that I've done all that I can do given the poor reference photograph. I can now put it to bed (so to speak), and start something that hopefully doesn't give me as many headaches as this one has.

Thank you once again for looking and commenting.

Take Care,

Barbara

Dear Patti,

Thank you so much.

Yes, I do believe that I've done all that I can do given the poor reference photograph. I can now put it to bed (so to speak), and start something that hopefully doesn't give me as many headaches as this one has.

Thank you once again for looking and commenting.

Take Care,

Barbara

Barbara, I too think you've done a marvelous job with a less-than-ideal reference photo.

A couple of suggestions: you've already softened the girl's face and taken away a lot of that hard, posed stare, but softening the indentations on either side of her mouth might help even more. You may have some reference photos that will help you see how to make that smile look a bit more natural. Her upper lip also has a little more definition in the photo; you have it slightly narrower which accentuates the hard look.

The other thing is that her back and shoulder on our left side look a bit off in the painting because in the photo the dark collar of her top shows a little more depth where it changes direction at the left and goes around under her chin. That makes it read as though the shoulder and back are a bit straighter than you have them in the painting - straight not in the sense of being horizontal but in the sense of being smoother . Also, the collar of that top comes up higher where it goes around the back of her neck in the photo. Both of these details give her shoulder a much more natural slope. Hope you can see what I mean here!

Leslie

Barbara with out a doubt I think that you have done a good job capturing the likeness of these two children.

One thing that I have noticed is the extreme sharpness of the girls shoulder, the strong diagonal where it meets the background. This sharpness is the one thing I find disturbing about this portrait, otherwise you have done a great job with the supplied reference photo.

You made the background light in color and value, almost the same value as the photo. The only suggestion I have is to soften the edge of this shoulder area, create a lost edge. You can do this by blending of course, or you could darken the value of the background and try and match the existing value of the girls shirt. This is what I would do with a portrait such as this, create a much darker background then I could lose a few edges making a more natural appearance.

Also I have noticed if you darken the background on the shoulder side and leave the opposite side somewhat lighter you will emphasize an already existing strong diagonal by the position and combination of the two figures. So by eliminating the sharp diagonal of the shoulder area you will still have a good diagonal design element on the opposite side. Diagonal design elements often add interest to a portrait.

You may want to look at some of the work of John Howard Sanden he always manages to create such a natural look with his ability to control values and edges, his work is a prime example of what I am trying to say.

Think soft with just a few sharp edges to break up the monotony, keep it changing.

Henry

Dear Barbara Mae,

You have such a nice finish to your portrait that I hate to bring up what bothers me the most, which is the shapes and structures of the kids noses, compared to the reference photo.

On the girl's nose the shadow suggests a much thinner nose than in the photo. Also while the nostrils are placed exactly right, the tip of her nose is too low, which makes it an adult nose rather than a child's.

The boy's nose should be structurally more broad too. The shape of his nose is distinctly different in the photo; the one you depicted is a little finer.

On the girl's eyes, you can probably get away with eliminating all of the black in the lashes. There is no evidence of dark eyelashes in the photo. I would try to work on the shape of the eyes too.

On the boy's eyes I would pay attention to their shape and lack of hard edges in the photo.

There are minor refinements that could be made to the indentures making the expression around and under the girl's lips. I would also pay attention to the structure of her neck.

Overall, like everyone else has said, you have a very successful painting going. The kids hair is particularly well done.

I hope I have not been too hard on you. I think you are getting close to the finish.

Garth

Dear Leslie,

Thank you so much for your help and advice. I have printed out your suggestions and I intend to follow them up today.

I was tempted to soften the corners of her mouth more but a little nervous that I may take away her 'likeness', but I think that you are right and it needs to be done. I hadn't noticed the upper lip difference and I will also follow that up.

Regarding the collar, I do see what you mean! I will also correct that today. These are all the 'little things' that I think we tend to lose sight of because we have worked too long on an area in a painting that is problematic, and the little 'tweaks' that are added when a painting is nearing an end are so important as I'm sure you know yourself. So as reluctant as I am to put it back on the easel (yet again), I will finish it and put it back to bed today, and then (hopefully) forget it.

Thank you once again for your help, it really is so much appreciated.

Take care,

Barbara

Dear Henry,

Thank you so much for your help and advice. I do agree with you about the background, I too feel that it should be darker in value so that I would be able to lose a few edges, especially the stripe on the girls jersey.

Unfortunately, the parents wanted the background even lighter! Not to be deterred, because I know that you are right, I am going to change the picture's background via photoshop and try to convince the parents to change their minds.

If I am not successful in the above, I will at least soften the edges where I am able.

Thank you once again, the help that I have received on this problematic portrait has been wonderful.

Barbara

Dear Garth,

It never occurred to me to turn the photo's to black and white.......what a difference! You can more easily see the tonal values and it highlights areas where you might be going wrong. I assume tha you do this via the Channel feature, anyway this was where I found the the option. I can't think why it didn't occur to me before!

I will be working on it again today and going through all your points in turn.

Thank you so much for your help Garth, it really is very much appreciated.

Take care,

Barbara

Dear Barbara,

In PhotoShop, I simply used Image/Adjustments/Desaturate. There is more than one way to get there. Using Channels like you said, gives you even more options. If a color is intense, you can push it toward black or white or anything in between, by adjusting the color chanels before you desaturate. The method I used effectively treats all three color channels as equal. Another good option is to convert the RGB file to Grayscale mode.

Garth

Barbara,

Here is another suggestion to help you straighten out the drawing and proportions in order to get a good likeness: If you can, print details from the reference photo (of the girl's head and of the boy's head, etc.) to the same scale as the painting. I find this immensely helpful in my own work.

There is a measuring utility in Photoshop buried in the eyedropper tool. Measure the head in the photo, and measure the head in the painting. Divide (using a calculator) the dimension from the painting by the dimension from the photo. Write down the result. Under Image/Image Size in Photoshop you can use that calculation result to multiply with either the height or width dimensions to make the photograph file match the scale of your painting (first you may want to reduce the DPI to 96 so you don't have an overwhelmingly huge file).

Once you get the hang of this it is easy to bring your reference image right up to the scale of your painting, and from that you can print out any detail needed, to hold up right next to your painting for comparison.

Hope this helps!

Garth

Black and white copies
 

Barbara, I think you have done an excellent job on this portrait and it has been interesting to watch the suggestions for improvements and how your painting has evolved.

I don't have Photoshop but I'm reading a lot about it. I have a WIP posted and wanted to get a better idea of the values so I took my reference photo to Kinko's and made a couple of black and white copies. It was helpful to enlarge the photo to the size I'm working on, as Garth suggested in one of his posts having the same size to look at is helpful.

I'm now wondering about how valuable Photoshop might be but that's a subject for another threat.

Barbara, I will continue to watch as you improve this painting. I think it's amazing that you can so easily correct something once it's pointed out to you, not everybody can do that. And that's what is so great about this forum, all the help people are willing to give.

Joan

Garth, I wonder whether this works in Photoshop Elements as well. I've had a devil of a time matching the size of reference photos to portraits in the past. This would definitely make my life easier!

Leslie

Leslie, I have no idea. I don't have PhotoShop Elements. If someone does, maybe they can check if there is a measuring tool option in the eyedropper, or somewhere else.

Garth

Threat?! Joan, you are scaring me!

Garth

Oooops!
 

Garth, sorry about bat. Next tim I'll use spelchick. ;)

Joan

After amendments
 

Hello all!



I really don't know what has happened to two of the posts?? I know that there was a post from Leslie Ficcaglia because I printed her post out. Now it doesn't appear in the posts at all! Also in the forum it displays that Joan Breckwoldt has posted, and it isn't there either?? Can anybody help me on this one? I really would like to see what Joan has to say.



Anyway, it has been back on the easel and I have followed up on all of the advice that I have been given...........here is how it looks now, I know that it is still far from perfect, but considering the source photo it maybe the best that I can come up with.



My sincere thanks to everyone for helping me out on this difficult portrait.



Barbara:D

Barbara, my original post is right there on the first page; I guess the entire thread doesn't get quoted on the reply-to-topic page, though.

Anyway, I think you've done a great job. The issue with the shoulder is much improved and her face is softer with a more appealing smile now. Congratulations!

Let us know how the clients like it, but in my experience they're not nearly as picky as we are.

Leslie

Hi Barbara,

I can see you have done quite a lot on this painting and it does look much better. I don't like your new brown background which is effectively competing as a foreground against your portrait subjects. The background brown is more strident and chromatically intense than any brown in either of the two kids. For example, the boy's brown stripe shirt should not appear to recede behind the background. I would kill the intensity of this brown with a velatura like I have described in the thread on my painting Apotheoun (page 4) http://forum.portraitartist.com/showthread.php?t=4136. It does not need to be much, a little goes a long way. You just want the background to be more atmospheric in perspective. It can be brown, but it has to be a quality of brown that relates well to everything else.

Hope this helps,

Garth

Barbara, I just expanded my explaination of a velatura, after I noticed you were already looking at it (just a couple of more sentences to help clarify things).

Barbara the dark background is a good improvement and the shoulder is not as obvious as before. To me the whole composition looks more unified and complete. I think you've done a good job with the improvements that you have made here, but I have to agree with Garth. You might want to add some light into your background in places making it a little less solid in appearance creating a more atmospheric look to the composition, but keep it darker in value by that shoulder area, Good job!

Henry

Dear Garth,

Thank you again for all your help on this. I visited your thread 'Tom at Eleven', and I can only say.............. WOW! Words are not enough, I love it.

I will now go and investigate into VELATURA, it's one that I've never heard of before.

Thanks again.

Take care,

Barbara

Dear Henry,

Yes Henry, you are right and I will make the changes in the next few days. I haven't looked into 'Velatura' yet, but intend to.

Thank you very much for looking and your advice, it is much appreciated.

Take care,

Barbara.

velatura
 

Barbara, I was too lazy before to copy the text from my Apotheoun thread, but now I have. This was from reply number 31, on page 4. http://forum.portraitartist.com/showthread.php?t=4136

Garth

velatura


Quote:
Originally Posted by Michele Rushworth
Garth, what's a "velatura"? And how would you say that was different from a glaze or a scumble? Thanks!

Hi Michele:

My understanding of a velatura or my understanding of a scumble may vary from others in this forum, because I have seen a number of posts that seem to lump the two together as the same technique. I do not have an art dictionary in front of me to back me up, but here is what I think I was taught at PAFA: We all know what a glaze is, usually a somewhat transparent thinned pigment in more medium overlaying a lighter underpainting layer. For me a velatura is treated the same way, except that it is a translucent lighter colored pigment suspended in medium over a darker underpainting layer. Velatura is equated as a "veil", putting an atmospheric haze over the painting. There will be a cooler color temperature shift, varying in degree according to how thick the veil is. One can think of it as the same effect as flakes of cereal in a bowl of milk; the brown flakes suddenly appear blueish as they dip below the milk.

Using only white in a velatura may make the painting more blue than you need. It is amazing to see how one can use a light orange tint (as an extreme warm example) over a darker brown, both being very warm colors, and acheive a sort of cool optical gray effect when covering the darkest values (actually, if the orange is intense enough it will effectively be a cooler chromatic yellow). If this veil is thicker, then it will be more orange than gray. Over white, of course this velatura would then be like an orange glaze. I am not really advocating the use of "orange" in a typical velatura. This is an extreme example, and there are a whole range of subtle possibilities in between. A velatura just may need to be formulated warmer than your target color you are looking for. If a painting becomes too dark and too warm, in its color effect (like mine sometimes do), or the contrast is too strong and jumpy (or too photographic), then a velatura may be the remedy.

For me a scumble can have a similar effect as a velatura, but I think of a scumble as a drier, more opaque consistency of paint being dragged over the texture of the canvas.

Hope this helps!
__________________
Garth Herrick

[QUOTE=Garth Herrick]Hi Barbara,

I can see you have done quite a lot on this painting and it does look much better. I don't like your new brown background which is effectively competing as a foreground against your portrait subjects. The background brown is more strident and chromatically intense than any brown in either of the two kids. For example, the boy's brown stripe shirt should not appear to recede behind the background. I would kill the intensity of this brown with a velatura like I have described in the thread on my painting Apotheoun (page 4) http://forum.portraitartist.com/showthread.php?t=4136. It does not need to be much, a little goes a long way. You just want the background to be more atmospheric in perspective. It can be brown, but it has to be a quality of brown that relates well to everything else.

Hello again Garth,

I looked right through the above thread and yes, it was mentioned in it, but no explanation of what Velatura is. I put my google search engine to work on it and it came up with a lot of sites.........in Italian! The ones that were in English talked about enamel and varnishes which was not much help to me I'm afraid.

Would you be so good as to explain to me what Velatura is? I made a guess after reading your thread that it was maybe a milky scumble, but as my guesses are usually way off the mark I thought that I would check with you.

Thanks again for all your help.

Barbara:)

Barbara,

Yes, I am suggesting a milky scumble-glaze (velatura) as a simple technique to take the most strident qualities out of your intense brown, without otherwise changing the brushwork or structure of your painting. If you are subtle enough you will hardly see any change at all. Your painting will look essentially the same, except that the background will feel subliminally more atmospheric. Test the velatura on another surface first to see if it has the effect you want.

Garth

Miracle Worker
 

I think you deserve the title of miracle worker for the final painting!

Hello again Garth.

I have scumbled blue into the background to cool it down. Do you think that I should give it another coat? I also scumbled some into the kids hair, was that a mistake? I have posted a close up of the kids because I noticed that her face looks a little distorted, even though it isn't really.

Thanks again Garth.

Barbara;)

Thanks Jeanine.

Yes, this was a real toughy! I think that I will go by my instincts when I am given poor reference material, trouble is, I really do like a challenge! But this one proved to be more of a headache than a challenge.

Take care Jeanine.

Barbara:)

Barbara,

Congratulations. This works to my eye. I applaud you for putting up with and responding to all the scrutiny. Well done!

Garth