Glazing, try and try again
 

I am tring to get this painting to work again. I did an underpainting that I was very happy with before Christmas, then I started putting on the glazes and it was too dark. After wiping off and trying many different variations of glazes, I finally decided that my underpainting was too dark. So I tried to repaint the underpainting over the too-dark underpainting. I wasn't happy with it so I set it aside.

You can see from the reference photo that one half of her face is in pretty dark shadow. This is where one of those plain white reflecting boards would have come in handy. Live and learn.

Now, months later, I have sanded off the underpainting I didn't like and repainted it much lighter to my satisfaction. At least I HOPE it's not too dark.

Her skin is painted with raw umber and titanium white at this point. The background and dress are finished colors because I didn't sand that off! I'm not sure the background color is the best. My next step will be to begin glazing, but before I begin that step I thought I would post this and ask for any suggestions. I really want to push this project through and get it done to the best of my ability, though now I realize my resource photo isn't the best. In other words, it's too late to go and take more photos.

Any help will be appreciated,

Joan

Longer bangs
 

I realize her bangs need to be longer, I was saving that so I could paint the hair down into the face when I paint the hair. Though that may be the least of my problems! :)

Joan

Nostrils!
 

After spending some time rereading posts about underpainting, I came across the post where Karin Wells talks about her copy of an Ingres where the underpainting tones are more midvalue than I made mine. I decided the nostrils in the above painting were too dark in value so I've lightened them. I'm leaving her eyes dark because her eyes are like dark pools of liquid and they'll be dark anyway. I think it's made a big difference just to lighten her nostrils, they were bugging me!

Any comments???

Joan

Hi Joan,

Not many artists use glazing in the skin colors. They are mostly build up in opaque colors.

Try to take the painting as close as you can by using opaque paint. You will get help when it is obvious where you want to go. It is not easy to say much at this state.

Hope this was usefully.

Allan

Dear Joan:

What I see in your reference photo is an extreme contrast between light and dark. You've set yourself up with a difficult task because you can hardly make out what's going on in the shadows, and the light is blinding out the high lights.

What I see in your under painting is flatness. This is further accentuated by sharp edges along the contour of the face. One of the reasons I use this technique is to create convincing shadows and I don't see that happening here.

If it were me, I would bring the whole thing down in value. Then I would work the shadow areas fairly darkly. I would then high the face up again trying not to lose its form.

Your main focus should be creating form, addressing the details later. Hope this has been of some help.

Allen is correct. As far as I know Karin and I are the only artists that use this technique on the forum. What makes it difficult, as compared with other techniques, is the fact that you can not explain in a few simple sentences what should be done next. It's often an intuitive thing, something that comes from many years of struggle.

Yet for me it gives a pleasing result and is adaptable to other techniques. But it's certainly not for everyone, especially those starting out who should first learn a more direct method.

Scott and Allen,

Thank you both for taking the time to reply. I do understand that this painting is rather flat, but that's because I'm planning on deeping or enhancing my middle tones with rich colors for shadows. My first attempt (that I mentioned above) before Christmas was not so flat, but I achieved that by using darker darks for the shadows. My problem was then that when I glazed, it got TOO dark. I am trying to build up that darkness with glazes, as I understood this was the method from reading previous posts about underpainting on this forum.

You can see my previous attempt on an earlier post:

http://forum.portraitartist.com/show...+underpainting

So, I have arrived at the solution to paint my underpainting using light and middle tones becuase the darker tones get too dark. You can understand my confusion, am I missing something?

Joan

Dear Joan:

I guess the question is, how close do you want to follow your reference photo? If you decide to lighten up the whole head, then there still should be a correct relative tonal relationship at this stage.

The tonal integrity of the underpainting should be your first priority before you even think about glazing. Glazing should be seen as a way of adding color, as opposed to a solution for achieving plasticity.

My advice to you is to spend as much time as possible getting the value relationships correct on the underpainting. When you finally have the feeling you can almost put your hands around the form, then you can begin to add color.

Dear Scott,

I agree with you that I cannot go by exactly what the photo tells me becuase half her face is too dark. So I am trying to keep the entire face in the 'light' values, with the shadows being the darkest 'light' value. I'm afriad to go any darker for fear of it looking too dark once I add glazes, which was the problem with my underpainting at Chrimstmas. Are you saying my darks on the face should be darker?

I don not plan on doing any modeling with glazes, just darking my shadows.

I'm not sure what you mean by '"achieveing plasticity"? Does it seem I am trying to achieve plasticity? If she looks plastic to you, I certainly would like to know.


[QUOTE=Scott Bartner]Glazing should be seen as a way of adding color, as opposed to a solution for achieving plasticity. [/QUOTEPerhaps with this reference photo a successful underpainting can't be done without the face appearing too flat. I don't have enough experience to 'make up' what is hidden by the shadows. It's a shame since this is such a cute girl and pose.

Thank you,

Joan

Is it possible to lighten up your reference photo to see what

Thank you!
 

Thank you, I think now I have a plan. I appreciate you taking the time to help me out with this. I am finding this method frustrating because I don't think I can go back and change a little here or there to get a likeness once I am past the underpainting stages. I may be wrong about this, but that is how it seems to me. That's why I get so nervous about moving on to the next step.

Scott, again, thank you.

Joan

Hi ,

Perhaps helps you if you make a print of your photo but about 20-25 % brighter than original, in Paint Shop Pro (or equivalent). Less contrast and using the "Colorisation" function (I took Hue=25 and Saturation=107). Now you get a "milky" or foggy picture and having "room or space" to go darker (glazes) or brighter with opaque flesh tints.

I also think that is difficult to change the forms after the first glazes.. Hope you're not angry 'cause manipulating... :sunnysmil You can even see the reflected light on the shadow side. If you get problems to alter your photo send me and I send back per mail.

Cheers.

PS. Michael Georges works with underpainting, too. Verdaccio. :)

Lighten photo
 

Leslie,

Thank you for your reply, I think you have a very good idea. I will try and lighten the photo in the photo program I have, I have one that came with this computer. I may need to buy Photoshop since I hear a lot about that program on this forum.

I am not angry at all that you manipulated the photo, I am the opposite, I'm glad you did so you could show me your idea.

If I hold the photo up to a light, I can actually see a lot more tones. For example, I can see the reflected light on her cheeck and that is in my underpainting, though I don't know if you can see those subtleties in the post.

Thank you again,

Joan

P.S. Wo in Deutschland wohnen Sie?

Joan,

Upps, Photoshop is a very good software, but all for our purpose here, the Paintshop Pro is the best and more favorable program.

Download the 30-day demo at www.jasc.com. This one has very good half-automatic functions to make better a "bad" photo.
It is cheating :) but I think even the Old Masters would be using PC or Mac today... ;) I try to avoid from using it, but this underpainting stuff is just not so easily, isn't?

The photo is too tiny to see details.BTW, reflected light, you don't need to paint it in the underpainting. Details, finesse, like at the direct painting, comes at the end.

Have fun with your "Carravagio" ;)

PS: Ich wohne in Stuttgart.

Paintshop Pro
 

Leslie,

Thank you for the website for the Paintshop Pro program. I have a digital camera so I can take some photos and then manipulate them. I do like my old fashioned camera though.

Yes, I find underpainting difficult. I am watching Peggy's tapes on alla prima painting and I may just go back to that way of painting, she has some very logical steps that make that process easier to understand. I am probably making the underpainting method too difficult. I didn't even know when to add the reflected light, though like many things I suppose I could do that whenever I felt like it. It all just takes lots of practice.

Joan

P.S. Meine Mutti war in der nahe von Stade geborn. Stade ist zwischen Hamburg und Cuxhaven. Meine Tante sind schon da gewohnen. Ich habt viel mal besuchen meine Tante. Ich find Deutschland sehr schon.

P.S.S. That's probably enough german for the forum ;) ! Leslie, I may e-mail you in german because I enjoy 'talking' with you and I enjoy writing in german. Though I wish there was a german 'spellcheck' on my computer.