[Douglas Drenkow]

Hi, my fellow "chemists" (Karin & Michelle)!

Let me say up front that I'm expecting a reply about all this and some other questions soon from a "world-class authority" (which I surely am not).

Isn't it so very frustrating having to go through all this, when we're really not chemists? Even my old high school chemistry teacher seems baffled by some of this obscure organic chemistry.

And the toughest part is that we really get most of our information from manufacturers or retailers (bless 'em) who, of course, are touting the benefits of their own products while downplaying the downside, and visa versa for the products of their competitors (Notice how the Gamblin chart doesn't even mention Sansodor, and how the Winsor & Newton site doesn't mention Gamblin by name). That's understandable, but it makes it difficult for us.

However, I think we're all in the same ballpark now -- even though there's probably no best solution for every problem (or every nose), so we may end up making different decisions...at least we'll make better informed decisions (Thank you for the forum, Cynthia).

That's great you're getting the MSDS, Karin -- I'm glad such data sheets are available. That's really the only way to know the "whole story".

Even then, though, some things seem omitted. Like the MSDS for BioShield really doesn't mention a permissible level (even the Gamblin solvent chart indicates "not applicable"), although it says it may cause irritations (That's a pretty mild warning). It does list the flash point as "1160 F" -- which the Gamblin chart translates into 116 degrees Fahrenheit (I assume that's correct, and that there's some flammability warning on the container, as there is on at least one of the other citrus products I can remember).

However, the BioShield data sheet doesn't mention anything about "suspected liver damage", as indicated in the Gamblin chart. However, yesterday at an art store, I checked products containing limonene (chemically related to the "pinene" of turpentine) -- in particular, Grumtine, from Grumbacher -- and plastered all over the container were warnings of liver and kidney damage.

I also read the following in the Winsor & Newton site...

"Some solvents, particularly hardware grade turpentine or mineral spirits, as well as many of the recently introduced citrus-based solvents for oils, are not fully volatile, leaving all kinds of impurities and detritus behind to sully your precious paint film."

That sounds a lot like the data about Turpenoid Natural.

By the way, all the container for Safe Klean said was that it was non-toxic and non-flammable, although it did bear a nontoxic certification label, so that's probably not its main drawback -- I still don't know how I could mix 6 oz. of that solvent with 1 oz. of stand oil and get it to separate into an approximately 3 oz. bottom layer and a 4 oz. top layer (ugh!).

Anyway, all that info about the citrus stuff sort of put me off of it, even though I consider myself something of an environmentalist (I'm actually educated in the biological sciences, and one of my main thrusts was promoting safe, effective alternatives to chemical insecticides).

Karin, didn't I read in one of your other posts how your child had been poisoned with lead? I admire you as a champion of safe materials (as well as an artist, of course). Although as I learned in chemistry, everything's toxic in certain amounts (ugh).

Incidentally, I like the non-toxic "flake white replacement" from Gamblin; and like you've mentioned in another post, their new, unleaded "Neo Megilp" sounds intriguing (I believe I read that book you mentioned in yet another post, where that man "recreates" paintings by Rembrandt and others, ironically in his own unique style, almost always using a black-oil medium -- even though that new Gamblin sheet says that medium wasn't introduced until the 18th Century. I still enjoyed the man's book -- very "tactile" descriptions of brushwork).

The 3 EcoHouse products listed on their website seem to be a powerful citrus product, a weak citrus product mixed with petrochemicals, and a petrochemical product -- I bet that MSDS shows the NeutralThin to be an OMS. We'll see how it compares to Gamsol and Sansodor.

And speaking of odor, I found Gamblin's Galkyd to have less of a "bite" than W&N's comparable alkyd medium, Liquin; but of course, that's certainly a matter of personal "taste".

And Michele, you've hit the nail on the head, as far as I'm concerned: We artists, especially painting portraits of loved ones and others, have to really be concerned about the longevity of our artworks. Absolutely! So if we have to open a window and fan out the fumes, so be it (or at least, as one of the containers I read said, get some fresh air every so often, and of course taking precautions for fire hazards). And I just hope that the home heating bills don't "go out the window" and that the guys down at the Pep Boys auto shop will take my OMS "sludge" with their motor oil for recycling (The "toxic waste round-ups" are few and far between).

I'll get back with a post about the reply to my questions put to the "world authority" as soon as I can. But for at least the time being, I'm probably going to use an alkyd medium, like Karin uses, and Gamsol and/or Sansodor -- seems like the safest, most effective combination of proven quality.