Palette drying too fast

[Linda Brandon]

Originally Posted by Joan Breckwoldt

Linda,

You put this so eloquently!

Actually, I didn't. I brusquely summarized some quite technical painting terms. (Marvelous Marvin knows this and is kindly not pointing this out. He is very knowledgable about scumbling and layered paint effects.)

Technically speaking, as I understand the terms, a scumble (which contains white) lightens what is underneath it and a glaze darkens it.

Reasonable minds have discussed the terms at length at http://forum.portraitartist.com/show...ight=scumbling and elsewhere on this Forum.

[Marvin Mattelson]

Linda, you're too kind, but flattery will get you anywhere.

Joan, You're getting a better idea but I think you're still stuck trying to differentiate between two seemingly opposite approaches.

I do put a scumble down as a base to paint wet into, but not all the time. Sometimes I paint over dry and sometimes over an oiled out section. Sometimes I let my underpainting show through. Sometimes intermediate layers show. Although my approach may be mistakenly viewed by many as being too methodical. In truth, it really allows me to be quite spontaneous. I do what works and at times I discover new techniques after my brush a has shown me the way. I discover new things about painting all the time. Ultimately discipline provides the greatest freedom.

[Joan Breckwoldt]

Hi Linda,

Thank you so much for that thread. I actually did read that about 2 weeks ago but now I've printed it out. So much to remember!

I do have one question. With a scumble, should I be paying attention to whether I'm using transparent colors or opaque colors? I've read a lot of Karin Wells posts and with glazing, it seems very important to glaze with transparent colors. But, does it matter with scumbles?

Thank you,

Joan

[Joan Breckwoldt]

Originally Posted by Marvin Mattelson

Joan, You're getting a better idea but I think you're still stuck trying to differentiate between two seemingly opposite approaches.

Thank you for your post Marvin. Are you saying they're not opposite approaches? Should I forget about trying to make them different and just meet in the middle, which seems to be where this is leading?

Originally Posted by Marvin Mattelson

Although my approach may be mistakenly viewed by many as being too methodical. . . . . Ultimately discipline provides the greatest freedom.

Methodical is good. I have an engineering degree and the main reason I got into engineering was because it was methodical. Methodical works for me. Perhaps that is why I'm trying so hard to name everything and find a place in my process for everything.

I think the best thing for me to do now is to just do it. I need to paint a portrait and use the 'layering' technique.

But, am I not back to the 'underpainting' method? I am comfortable painting a monochromatic portrait. With this step I can get my values correct. If the world were in black and white I'd be great. Too bad I can't be done with that first step! Then the next step is adjusting color. I realize most artists combine these two steps but I'm not proficient enough to place down value and color correctly at the same time. After my layer of color I can proceed to adjust the color with layers of scumbling. (Maybe glazing, whatever is necessary.) I feel comfortable I could do this. But, isn't this the 'underpainting' method?

I suppose it doesn't matter what the method is called, as long as it works.

Thank you everyone for sharing your wisdom on this subject!

Joan

[Joan Breckwoldt]

One more thought. I guess I understood that with the underpainting method one paints the underpainting and then adds glazes. No scumbles, just glazes. The glazes made the painting darker. So that means the final painting would never be lighter anywhere than the original underpainting. The underpainting had to be lighter everywhere than the final painting would end up being.

That's probably not right though, is it? Why have a technique that is so limiting. No wonder that method didn't work for me when I tried it.

Hmmph.

Joan

[Marvin Mattelson]

There are many types of under-painting. I have a demo on my site from a workshop in Atlanta last year at http://www.fineartportrait.com/workshop_demo.html Maybe this will strike a chord?

I assume you went to school for a number of years to become an engineer. Is art any less legitimate than engineering? I would suggest you consider taking a workshop that would clarify a sound working procedure. I could probably recommend someone if you're interested ;-)

[Joan Breckwoldt]

Hi Marvin,

Thank you for your reply. I have studied that demo a number of times. I know it would be so much better in person. The subtle changes from one picture to the next are almost to subtle for me to see.

Yes, it did take me a long time to get that engineering degree . . . for all the good it's doing me now. But that's a different story.

Believe me, I'm trying to get to your workshop and I've e-mailed with Haleh regarding this. (Oh, did you mean your workshop when you said you could recommend somebody? You're too subtle! ) My biggest obstacle is that I have 2 kids at home during the summer so it's hard for me to be away for a week. During the school year when they're in school all day would be easier for me to disappear for a week, but alas, I don't believe you offer any workshops during the school year. I'm probably not the only potential student faced with that problem but since you teach regular classes during the school year it's probably impossible for you to offer a week long workshop during the same time. But I'll continue to work on it.
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Thanks again,

Joan

[Joan Breckwoldt]

Marvin,

Are the week long classes you offer at the School of Visual Arts the same format and content as the off-site workshops? I'm asking because I've read so many positive comments on the forum about the off-site workshops.

Thanks,

Joan

[Marvin Mattelson]

Hi Joan,

Every thing I do, in terms of my teaching, comes from the same place, my ideas about the painter's mindset and relating painting techniques to that mindset. The workshops at SVA are exactly the same format as the out of town ones. The only difference is that one of my SVA workshops is oriented towards figure painting while all my others are portrait workshops. In my ongoing classes I usually have both figure and portrait setups.

I actually think that painting the figure can be more helpful in regards to learning portraiture. The angles and shapes are much more obvious. Traditionally the figure was always studied first. In the past I have seen incredible progress when people have taken both the figure and directly followed with the portrait workshop in a two week period. It's very intense.

In May I did two one week workshops. Below I've enclosed a week two workshop painting by new student Lori Hey, who did both weeks. The second weeks progress seems geometric. Lori regular medium is pastels, so working in oil was a very new experience for her.

Regardless of what form of study (classes or workshops) people choose to experience, they seem to derive great benifit. My main objective is to transform how people think about painting. This is why I always take my NY students to the Met each semester. I like to point out what I believe is irrifutable evidence as to the mindset of all great realistic painters. This is the one great advantage to attending a NY workshop. My out of town workshop students have to settle for a slide lecture. Nothing comes close to seeing the real paintings.

My figure workshop starts July 19th a week from tommorrow. If anyone is interested, they should register asap. The portrait workshop starts July 26. The Met trip is July 25, sandwiched between both workshops. The School of Visual Arts phone # is 212-592-2050.