Lovely Alizarin, what are you using for a replacement?

[Richard Bingham]

Cue words in paint labelling that indicate the pigment is a convenience mix, or otherwise adulterated are: "Hue" "Extra" and apparently "Lake" as well.

The insatiably curious among us will have to master organic chemistry in order to navigate the list of synthetic pigments . Perhaps ASTM has "upgraded" PR-83 from anthraquinone to add the "dihydroxy" prefixes? I dunno what that means to the designation which has been common since 1870, other than the "anthra" indicates that coal-tar (anthracite) is still the raw material. Claiming light-fastness of "I" indicates a change for the better.

Tom, as painting mediums entail different oils, resins and solvents, mixing paints mulled in walnut oil with those mulled in linseed is not a problem. W&N uses safflower/linseed blended oil in some of their colors. Oils of different specific gravities will ultimately separate in fluid state, this may not happen when the blend is mulled into paint, but why compromise linseed with an inferior oil?

David, Madder Root never was the raw material in Alizarine colors. At one time, "Madder Lake" meant something "real", as the colorant (dye) extracted from madder root was used to make a "lake", i.e., dye an inert solid which could be mulled into paint. There were other processes, but Rose Madder was always considered a fugitive color.

[David Carroll]

My tube of W&N Artists' oil say's Anthranquinone PR 117, Vehicle: Linseed oil. Not sure what vintage but it is the old label. I compared it with OH 's ACLE with only white (MH Flake #2) added, they were very close in hue and in tinting power and they are both quite stiff out of the tube. This as with everything with me, was very unscientific.

I wonder which oil the Maimeri was ground in? Jerry's lists the Puro line as being made with either safflower or poppy.

Peace,

[David Clemons]

Originally Posted by David Carroll

...I wonder which oil the Maimeri was ground in? Jerry's lists the Puro line as being made with either safflower or poppy.

That's what they say on their website too. I don't see an "alizarin," but what looks closest to me is Quinacridone (Crimson or Rose Lake,) no PR 83. There's a Antraquinone Orange Lake.

Schmincke Mussini has a PR 83, but listed as "Antrachinone" in their German PDF chart.

http://www.maimeri.it/FineArts/colorprod.asp?mnu=0101#
http://www.schmincke.de/data/content/uk/uk_index.htm

FYI, I found this site a while back that gives some concise history about different pigments.

[Garth Herrick]

It's an exceptionally well made handmade Alizarin and is the only brand I've experienced that actually matches the color effects of Rose Madder Genuine, an historic and very beautiful pigment. It is considered to be reasonably lightfast, and more stable and pure than any other brand over the past century. Here is the web link for Vasari Alizarin Crimson .

I have most all the alizarin replacements too, and none of them really replaces the Vasari original.

Garth

[Garth Herrick]

Hi Sharon,

Here are two pictures of my tube which will answer most questions about the Vasari product. "Highest quality purified, refined linseed oil" is the vehicle, and a lightfastness rating of "III Fair" is stated on the back of the tube. I think I was told by Steven Salek, who makes the paint, that the pigment (PR83), is madder derived, in this case. This is why it looks just like rose madder genuine. He told me some more things about how this pigment is more stable and better processed, but I have forgotten the details. It may be better to inquire at Vasari directly.

EDIT: don't necessarily trust the color here! It looks off to me on my monitor. It should look as a much deeper cool wine color.

Garth

[Richard Bingham]

Originally Posted by Garth Herrick

. . . I was told by Steven Salek, who makes the paint, that the pigment (PR83), is madder derived, in this case. . .

Chemically, PR 83 is derived from anthracene, a coal-tar derivative. Possibly he meant that their choice of material in this instance "derives" from satisfying their idea of a "match" for genuine madder?

Most colorsts' offerings are "signature" and this is more true of small "boutique" makers. Vasari makes excellent paint IMO.

[Sharon Knettell]

[QUOTE=Marvin Mattelson]
I stick with Old Holland and Michael Harding exclusively for my commission work due to the fact they are both ground in cold pressed linseed oil. QUOTE]

I am concerned about the vehicle as well. The paint manufacturers tout pure alkali refined linseed oil as a virtue, when it is the cheapest and most easily available binder available.

Since I am not know for my understated color, I think I will stick with the SP's Pryrolo Ruby for now.

Recently, halfway through a painting, my lissome ash-haired model showed up with white blond hair streaked with hot pink. the Pyrolo Ruby was up to the task. The painting, needless to say took a turn towards anime. Whatever!

[Richard Bingham]

I'm concerned by how difficult it is to learn exactly what kind of linseed oil we may actually be dealing with in any given situation, marketed as it is in varying qualities and types with equivocal or conflicting descriptions.

As with olive oil, the extraction process results in grades of differing "purity", with different properties. The "gold standard" is cold-pressed (extra virgin?); the seeds are simply smashed to yield free oil. The press tailings (and whole seeds) may also be tapped for the oil they contain by running them through a centrifuge-like machine called an "expeller". Adding steam heat to the process allows the extraction of still more oil. Once refined, it's a moot point whether "cold pressed" oil is actually superior for our purposes.

Cold-pressed linseed oil goes rancid unless refrigerated. In order to prevent it from going rancid, it has to be refined; waxy solids must be removed, similar to the way milk solids are removed from clarified butter. Refining either butter or linseed oil stabilizes them so they can be stored at room temperature without going rancid.

Alkali refined linseed oil is produced by spraying a dilute alkali solution on the surface of a vat of oil. As water is heavier than oil, it slowly settles to the bottom. The alkaline solution saponifies in contact with the oil, causing an ion exchange which attracts foreign matter, which is carried along with the water (which is now a soap) to the bottom. It's a complex process; in spite of the alkaline treatment, the oil retains varying degrees of acidity, which is necessary to form tough paint films during the polymerization which occurs as the oil oxidizes (dries).

The most carefully graded and refined linseed oil is used in the manufacture of printers' inks. SP uses this grade of oil in their paint.

In the "good old days" before petrochemicals eradicated linseed oil along with turpentine and natural resin varnishes from paint store shelves, Spencer-Kellogg linseed oil, cheap by the gallon at the local farm Co-op store met all reasonable standards for use in oil painting. So far, the stuff currently available to me (Startex) appears to be OK, but each new lot I buy will require testing, as the quality of all painting materials (regardless of their source) has become a moving target.

[Sharon Knettell]

Richard,

Thank-you for taking the time to 'clarify' a confusing point about paint vehicles.

I am using the SP Optical white as well as the Pyrolo Ruby.

The Optical White is a revelation, it keeps colors brilliant and they do not seem to 'sink in'. The Pyrolo Ruby is exquisite and as I love brilliant pinks, it has been an extremely useful substitute for Alizarin.

This is off the topic somewhat, but the texture of SP's paint especially the whites are tailor-made for painting skin. They blend so beautifully even when you don't try to blend them. The consistency is perfect.

[Marvin Mattelson]

With all due respect, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss cold pressed linseed oil. I have never experienced any tube of Old Holland or Michael Harding turning rancid. Cold pressed linseed oil makes the most flexible and durable paint film and was used by the old masters. The old Holland cp linseed oil is pressed by stone using a windmill and is the most expensive process in it's manufacture. Cold pressed is also the most stable with regards to color stability of dried paint. It is considered to have superior wetting power when it comes to grinding.

Alkali refined linseed oil was developed in the 19th Century. In many cases paintings painted in the last 150 years show much more evidence of deterioration, discoloration, darkening and cracking as compared to 17th Century paintings which were created using lead primer, lead white, earth based pigments and cold pressed linseed oil. Today, through the use of the most sophisticated scientific instrumentation, conservation scientists have found no evidence that the old masters used anything other than cold pressed oil. Modern doesn't necessarily mean better.

Since the 18th Century artists and color-men have been trying to improve upon something that was integral and pure to begin with, looking to find an easy answer to the successes of the old masters. The real answer is that the masters knew how to paint. Historically, "discoveries" of magic painting mediums and such have resulted in too often disastrous consequences, sometimes not evidenced for 100 years. This was the case regarding the 18th century medium, Megilip, the precursor of Maroger medium. In my opinion using Maroger, alkyd resins, natural resins or varnishes in or as painting mediums is highly questionable. Many fine artists choose to ignore the lack of historical viability regarding these substances and produce fine works. I, for one, don't trust that these things provide archival stability and choose to remain a purist. I don't experience any lacking in my ability to make the paint do my bidding.

All manufacturers have numbers, explanations and statistics which seemingly prove the superiority of their modern ingredients. I take their claims and reassurances with a very large grain of salt. The bottom line is, they want your money! I don't believe that the integrity of their products is first and foremost in their hearts, regardless of their claims to the contrary. Refined linseed oil is much cheaper to use in the manufacture of paints. I say let the buyer beware.

Personally, the fact that a particular refined linseed oil is used in the finest printing inks is far from a valid reason to trust it's viability as a superior vehicle. The printing industry, in my experience, is not too concerned with longevity.

I would never so much as consider using any paint not ground in cold pressed oil in the creation of my artwork. I have an obligation to my clients which I don't take lightly. Refined is okay for student use but not when it comes to serious painting.

Regarding a viable alternative for the less-than-permanent Alizarin Crimson, I would rather use a mixture of permanent pigments. below is a painting I created using the Old Holland Alizarin Crimson Lake Extra. I think it turned out just fine.