Critique & anger, a lethal mix - Page 8

Peter Jochems · 03-14-2003, 10:18 AM

Michael was honest. One can learn a language better than someone else, another has a musical ability others do not have. And so it is with the ability to draw and paint people.

Peter

Elizabeth Schott · 03-14-2003, 10:21 AM

Thank you Karin for starting this thread. I think there has been so much heartfelt input here.

As I read the whole thing, it boils down to one simple statement for me:

I am thinking about portrait art in a much different way than I did before I came here.

It has raised the bar on what I consider acceptable in myself. The critiques certainly play a big part in this, but it is visiting all the artists web sites, reading the tool section, watching Peggy's videos, memorizing Chris Saper's book (which she'll have to autograph for me in April, if she can find a page that hasn

Marvin Mattelson · 03-14-2003, 10:48 AM

Who ever said it wasn't fun? We just said it was hard. That's what makes it so much fun. Each little step forward brings so much satisfaction. If everything came easily, then everything would become old very quickly. The fact that you can continue to get better and grow, no matter what your level is, makes this a never ending source of joy. Yin and Yang; pain and pleasure; up and down. If everyone would learn to paint the world would be a much better place.

Painting gives you the opportunity to create a (very) small piece of the universe exactly the way you want it. You become God-like in the mini-universe of your painting (as long as the client agrees). On the other hand, when it really flows you are not even there. Painting is meditation at the highest level.

Am I always happy when I paint? No, I'm not Alfred E. Neuman! Sometimes I want to pull my hair out (see photo), but I always prevail in the end because it's something I need to do to satisfy my soul. It's certainly better than starting wars!

Morris Darby · 03-14-2003, 12:35 PM

I am a part-time portrait artist. I have been pursuing portraits for over six years. I work with other artists in the area to continue the learning process of light/shadow, values, and especially likeness. Each of us points out to each other what they see or what they think the piece needs.

Here we do the same thing...and with much more experienced artists. What a field of treasures! On some of my early pieces Steve Sweeney critiqued what I thought were my very best works. He picked through them and nice as he is, it was still hard for me to take (if I can find the file I'll post it soon). However, and no matter how nit picky I thought it was (axis of the base of the nose not aligned with chin and forehead), I look at that piece today and see every minute detail he presented. My following works have none of those and by great measure are far superior works than that one.

My theory: if those who are offended will just leave, we'll have only those here who are willing to learn. If you just want to draw and have fun, get some of your family to tell you how it looks. If you want to paint portraits, then it is a highly technical field and life-long pursuit and is had by many professionals who started just as we are.

My passionate thanks to all here who are willing to take time out of their professional careers to help a struggling artist like myself to better himself and someday take the stage and awards along beside them.

Sharon Knettell · 03-14-2003, 03:00 PM

Marvin,

You and I do agree on some major points, proper foundations and really learning your craft. While I do think the best approach is to find an inspiring mentor, I was reminded of Rousseau who was self taught. A lot of what I see in the present classical and realism movement is, in my opinion, rather dull and derivative.

I have taken exception to your self promotion of your workshops.

I do think a student should be inspired by a particular style or artist and seek him or her out. I know you have been asked to do so, so have many of us. Art, I think is somewhat like religion. I am always suspicious of churches that advertise and proselytize.

Mentioning them, in my opinion, when offering a critique or an opinion defeats the purpose of this forum and makes it look like a sales tool for workshops.

Sincerely,

Marvin Mattelson · 03-14-2003, 04:47 PM

Oh Sharon,

I knew deep in my heart it couldn't last.

Yes we agree on many points. I too agree that much of the academic work one sees is lifeless. I think that type of training covers an important part of the equation but it's not the whole enchilada. There is the other side of the coin, the expressive side. Too much of either is not good.

In terms of the self promotion thing I respectfully choose to disagree with you. If you notice to left of the posts, at the top left side of each page are little banner ads promoting various products of SOG artists some of whom are also critiquing here on the forum. Since I am primarily a painter and am not willing to spend the time to do a video (Coming soon - Marvin Mattelson the Movie) or write a book due to the time commitment, I have no banner over there.

Furthermore, the forum itself is a promotional tool for SOG. They each give each other credibility (not to mention web presence). The forum is still a valuable tool, nonetheless.

I have been teaching for over 30 years. I never considered doing workshops until last summer when one of my students asked if I could recommend one she could take on her vacation. My past experience has been whenever one of my students went to study somewhere else they got "screwed" up, so I said if it was ok with SVA, I would lead one. So I did.

The participants had a great time and learned a lot. Many said it was the best workshop (thanks Mom) they had ever attended and so when Renee and Denise approached me I thought it would good for me to "go south" at their invitation. So I am. Our advertising budget is word of mouth. My mouth.

If I offer it to people or just recommend the general concept of taking a workshop it's because I feel it will genuinely help them.

So in addition to helping people here I help promote myself as well, for what I believe is their greater good. At least I am upfront about it. I'm sure I could ask people I know to write in and praise me (untold thousands stand waiting, just kidding) I see that all the time here on the forum. Is there a difference? I feel comfortable doing so because in the end I know that whatever it takes to get people to come, I CAN HELP THEM!!

Since you live in Boston I would invite you to come to my workshop in Greenwich Connecticut and see for yourself, May 27 to 30, 2003, but I wouldn't want to offend you. People have the choice. If they see my sparkling smile they can choose to skip my posts if I offend them, or they can read my words, if interested, look at the work both my students and I have done, and choose one way or the other.

I think life is just too short to stand around and wait for things come to you. Look around. Do good things really come to those who wait? So what if on occasion, I choose to reach out and take the bull by the horns. Gotta get back to my easel, the commercial's over.

One last thing, I jokingly tell my students that we are all members of the Church of Academic Realism since painting IS my religion.

Still friends?

Sharon Knettell · 03-14-2003, 05:17 PM

Only if I don't get my diamond!

Marvin Mattelson · 03-14-2003, 09:38 PM

It's in the mail.

Renee Price · 03-14-2003, 10:15 PM

This topic began about people becoming angry because of a critique they received. What about the paintings that are never critiqued? I have noticed several artists posting work (both excellent and beginner) and practically begging for a critique, even moving their paintings in the hopes that someone will say something. If nothing else, I am honest. I have to admit that I was bothered that my most recent painting had not been critiqued, so when I read this thread about offending people in a critique, I was compelled to bring up this other side. I would much rather have someone tell me to throw out my brushes and find a government job, than to be ignored. I've kind of been told that, and I'm still here! A person has to be willing to work, able to take criticism, and make your own opportunities.

Which brings up another note. Sometimes we all have to take the bull by the horns and go after what we want. I had learned a lot from the forum, and was ready for the next step. "When the student is ready, the teacher will come." Denise told our story so well, that there is nothing I could say to improve on it. We both had a need, we both had a vision, and when she said the name Marvin Mattelson, I just about jumped out of my chair. The workshop has taken off and has been nothing but fun. Marvin is a blast and I think Denise and I are long lost sisters!

Final thoughts that are just my opinions: harsh critiques are better than none, and be driven to be the best you can be(and prove your critics wrong!) Watch out for us in July! The future's so bright we gotta wear shades!

Renee Price

Shameless promotion: Marvin Mattelson Portrait in Oil June 20-24, 2003 Greensboro, NC

Michael Georges · 03-15-2003, 11:22 AM

Moderator's note: this and the next several posts refer to posts that have since been deleted.

First, let me remind everyone of the rules of engagement on this forum - please refrain from personal attacks. This thread is well on its way to tearing itself asunder without any additional push.

Regardless of your position or personality, we are all here and for our own individual reasons we all keep coming back to this forum. So, while we are all here together, we should do our best to help one another not tear others down.

So I encourage everyone (including me) to get out into the topics and help where you can! Promote yourself if that is your desire - God knows that if we don't promote ourselves, no one else will do it for us. But I think that with everything we "receive" from this forum, there comes a responsibility to "give back".

That is what makes us a community. Without it, we are just a bunch of nut artists focused on our own self-interests looking for opportunities to snipe at others - that is not the community we want to build.