Fully realized

[Kimberly Dow]

That's a tough one Mike. I don't know artspeak very well either.

I would assume (maybe incorrectly) that if they were asking those kinds of questions that they didnt care for that style. In that case, I might just answer that it is a particular style that you've found to be quite popular and enjoyable. And no, "I dont charge less as it takes quite a bit of skill to pull this off sucessfully." Of course, I don't spend a lot of time trying to educate people about art either, I'm not a natural salesperson. Once they've hired me I will, but not usually before unless it is some kind of opening and a specific question. But those questions sound so much like they are showing displeasure and I dont think you can talk someone into liking a style if they dont right away.

These do take extra skill to pull off - I dont think I have ever done one myself I liked.

[Mike McCarty]

I suppose it goes without saying that you wouldn't show up with a painting in this style without having done some education of the client before hand.

I would just like to be able to argue it's merit if I felt that a composition might benefit from such a technique. Just one of the drawbacks of being left in the woods as a child and being taught by a family of wolves.

[Chris Saper]

There's probably no more prolific (nor superior) vignette painter than Harley Brown.

I have done quite a few vignettes, and always include a couple in my portfolio, and ask potential clients to react to various pieces, so I can understand what appeals to them. About 80% of the pastel commissions I have done are vignettes, and probably about 20% of the oils. (No doubt for avariety of reasons...)

I actually feel it IS my job to educate clients insofar as different styles, artists, and prices. I need to know right away if they are looking for a painter like Dean Paules, who competently and meticulously can paint the roses in the Waterford vase on the antique Flamenco shawl on the baby grand piano on the silk Persian carpet which flows beneath the lace, bead and taffeta gown. I can't do that, and if I am not going to be the right painter for them, I want to know right away.

I let people know right away that the only purpose background serves for me is to lead the viewer where I want him to go, regardless of whether there is bare canvas visible or not.

I also agree that a successful vignette can be difficult to pull off, and as matter of fact, I think we should start a thread on this very topic, if one does not already exist.

being taught by a family of wolves.

That may be, but you still have lovely manners.

[Kimberly Dow]

Chris,

I wanted to clarify - I agree completely that we should educate our clients. I am referring to not educatinig (or to word it differently: selling) those that are just viewing the work. I guess I would look at those comments that Mike was asking about the same as I would if someone were to ask me "why do you paint so tight, why not loosen up?" If this were a potential client situation I wouldn't put much effort into trying to get them to 'like' my style. I always assume, and I do ask to make sure, that it is MY work someone wants when they are hiring me. There is a part of my contract that states something like "...hiring this artist for their particular style..." and more about being familiar with the artists style.

I may have taken Mike's question and twisted it. He wants to have a way to discuss this and make these types more valid to clients who don't get it ( I hope am am putting that close enough to what you meant) - and I kind of feel that if they dont get it, they cant be talked into it.

I'm curious Chris - when you say you want to know if they want work more like this artist or that one - do you show them samples of others work? I'm wondering why this is necessary if they have seen your work? I always assume that if we show them our work then they can see what their painting will be like. And if they didn't like our work they wouldn't be there... You have a distinctive style - I wouldn't hire you unless I loved that. It seems like common sense, but maybe I'm being too simplistic.

[Chris Saper]

Hi Kim,

My apologies as I think I was not very clear - I absolutely agree that the reason we as painters get hired is because people like our work. In my experience, though, I get many potentials who don't really know about what's out there to be had, and are trying to recover from sticker shock ( I should preface this to say maybe this is more suitable for the business section, as I don't make appointments to see potentials unless they already know my prices. That doesn't mean they're not still shocked )

To this end I keep a comparative market portfolio primarily for the purpose of pricing education. Unless the average client has actually done any portrait shopping, there's no reason that they would know what portraits cost. So I show them a variety of styles and prices. I encourage them to do research. I want to show them that they are getting good value with me. In the course of this, yes, they will see many other artists' styles.

I suppose all of this would fit under the category of "Pre-qualifying a Client".

I also think you are 100% right, no amount of sales pitch can make someone like a style they aren't attracted to...

[Marcus Lim]

Originally Posted by Mike McCarty

I wonder if I could get some help understanding a style of painting that I see and like, and to some extent have done myself...
My question is not so much about the above kind of art speak, but mostly about my own ignorance and desire to be able to communicate intelligently with the people that may view my paintings...
When an intelligent, albeit not in the arts, person says to you:

* when will you finish it?
* why have you already framed it?
* did you just get bored with it and quit?
* were you pressed to start another?
* I would want mine to be finished with paint everywhere.
* you would charge less for this, right?

When i hear similar comments like this, i'm suddenly reminded about how things are in Singapore art market. Literally, people don't understand the notion that "the art market is not a mass market", as Michele have put it. Worse when one gallery owner defines good art as one which "looks sharp, not blurred"!
So nowadays i came up with an informal "client screening" process, which includes educating them about painting styles; not just mine but a few artists' styles that i know and understand.

Originally Posted by Chris Saper

...I actually feel it IS my job to educate clients insofar as different styles, artists, and prices. I need to know right away if they are looking for a painter like Dean Paules...and if I am not going to be the right painter for them, I want to know right away...

I agree with Chris that it is imperative to reach out to clients with our works and prices, and allow them to react to it.

Then comes the second part where either at the start of in the middle of the process, clients ask list of questions that Mike has faced before here. I'm not good at artspeak, or business-speak for the matter, but i explain to them about my purpose being an artist (somewhat artist statement in SIMPLE ENGLISH), and that my work represents the ESSENCE of what i understand of who they represent in their own lives - and what they mean to the people around them.

Most of all, the so-called "incompleteness" in our paintings was not because we are scrimping on oil materials (yes, we get those comments too...) or we got bored with it, but simply that any more work on it, kills that ESSENCE. Like the best chefs in the world, any extra pinch of salt kills the flavor of their culinary creations. If you really want a fine work, i think we jolly well can recommend a couple of photoshops that does great photo portraits.

At this point, i suddenly remember an oath that one artist jokingly puts it to her clients, to swear that "this is a painting, not a photograph"!...errr, was it from you, Chris?

So to end mike, what is important is not about spouting technicalities to people who query about the finished work, i mean after all they pay hefty sums for it. But to continue to affirm ourselves, and with them with who we are as artists, our missions with them, and fufilling that mission to the point that the people around our clients identify with the artists. At least, that's what i learnt from watching the DVD on Norman Rockwell, when they interviewed his relatives and neighbours at Stockbridge.

[Mike McCarty]

Thank you all. Your observations have helped a great deal.

I would like to make an observation. Ignorance is almost always ugly, but there is a cure. People often try to disguise their ignorance by being coy or flippant. I think this is really a cry for help.

I have encountered many intelligent, successful people that have reached a point in their life where they want learn different things, and maybe now want to surround themselves with the trappings of their success. These people no nothing about art and are embarrassed and intimidated by the fact that they are as mature as they are and, while they may know all there is about running a chain of restaurants, know nothing about art.

As they set out in their own stealthy way to learn, they encounter something which confuses them, like seeing a vignette style of painting. They may very well like what they see, but their inability to understand it is off putting to them. And so they will make a cry for help (like me).

I want to recognize what it is that they want and be prepared to educate them in a way that does not seem arrogant or insensitive. This is a person wanting to be a client, but doesn't want to be fooled or tricked. They have seen plenty tomfoolery in their day.