Joy Thomas' first time

[Claudemir Bonfim]

Originally Posted by Joy Thomas

I looked at your website and was delighted to see your sensitive works.

Joy Thomas
www.portraitartist.com/thomas

If I were you, I'd copy this sentence and paste it in my website...

[Sharon Knettell]

I am not a good marketer, nor am I fabulously well known in the portrait art world but when I do get a commission, or sell a painting, the client pays for it well. Find other ways to supplement you income, anything.

There is a good article in Harpers magazine this month explaining the difference between the player and the worker. it is a bit complex to explain here, but the player, who does not produce anything and usually has the money, tries to get as low a price from the worker (the person who actually produces something). The player, (stockbroker, politician, CEO), generally has contempt for the worker.

I find that if I ask what I think are high prices, the client has MORE respect for me. What I found is they like to brag about HOW much they paid for it, or in the worse case, how they snookered the artist.

High falutin' charity auctions is a good way to get your name known. One of the best marking ploys I have heard on this site is used by Linda Brandon. She offers only a charcoal drawing done from life. It is a win-win situation. If the client only wants the sketch, you get a free live model, if they want an upgrade, you have a full commission only subtracted by the price of the sketch which goes to charity.

[Michele Rushworth]

My contract is completely in my favor

I wonder, Joy, if you would be so kind as to post a copy of your contract? The Business and Marketing section of this Forum would probably be the best place. My contract could probably use some updating and I'd love to see what you have in place.

In a former life I was a marketing and sales person in a couple of high tech firms. I think that's why I'm comfortable with it, and sometimes it's a nice change after being at the easel for days at a stretch.

I've thought long and hard about my pricing. Until very recently all my commisions have been in the Seattle area, where painted portraiture is almost completely unknown and is compared with portrait photography when it comes to the price. I find I need to sit down and clarify with my clients exactly why this is several times more expensive than what they can get at the local photo studio. Sometimes they get it and sometimes they don't.

[Joy Thomas]

Originally Posted by Michele Rushworth

I wonder, Joy, if you would be so kind as to post a copy of your contract? The Business and Marketing section of this Forum would probably be the best place. My contract could probably use some updating and I'd love to see what you have in place.
.

I'll be happy to do that...I don't have it in a document form in my computer...so I'll put it together this weekend at some point.

[Joy Thomas]

Originally Posted by Sharon Knettell

There is a good article in Harpers magazine this month explaining the difference between the player and the worker. it is a bit complex to explain here, but the player, who does not produce anything and usually has the money, tries to get as low a price from the worker (the person who actually produces something). The player, (stockbroker, politician, CEO), generally has contempt for the worker.

I find that if I ask what I think are high prices, the client has MORE respect for me. What I found is they like to brag about HOW much they paid for it, or in the worse case, how they snookered the artist.

I've spent a lot of time thinking about this concise observation concerning pricing, Sharon...and I have found this to be true as well.

Thanks for mentioning the article..it is a good idea for artists to become familiar with economics, workers rights, union activities, pay scales and so on in the industrial world because professional artists that accept commissions are workers in fact...(without labor organizations to offer protection or negotiate pay)...and like other skilled professionals, they need to be aware of the existing market and know how their "product" compares to the competition.

As a self-employed artist I try to remember that I have entered this profession at great financial risk. Health care, retirement, paid vacation, workman's compensation and the many other benefits that state employees or factory workers enjoy are simply not available to the self-employed artist. With those factors in mind, I set down every quarter and take a hard look at my taxes to determine how much I am really making per year. Typically the results are not actually very impressive when compared to other highly skilled specialists.

Extensive training and years of practice are required to develop the skill set one needs to become an accomplished portraitist. When well executed the product is uniquely rare and will become more valuable with time. Fees should reflect that.

[Sharon Knettell]

Originally Posted by Joy Thomas

Extensive training and years of practice are required to develop the skill set one needs to become an accomplished portraitist. When well executed the product is uniquely rare and will become more valuable with time. Fees should reflect that.

It is a very delicate balance the artist has to negotiate between the client and him or herself . Often the artist is poor and needs the commission badly. This puts the artist on the defensive both artistically and financially. I have noticed that we often explain our fees ad infinitum, as if we ourselves are guilty of charging SUCH an exorbitant fee. We all to often think it is a large fee vis-a-vis our own perspective. We often quake inwardly (at least I do) when coming in contact with extreme wealth, I don't mean Mercedes, I mean Bentleys and Rolls. Just give them the fee as confidently as you can, try NOT to bargain, it makes you look needy.

I here a lot of whining on this site about how little one gets for a piece of work. The reason I quoted Joy above is that all too often the artist has NOT done the heavy lifting required to become an accomplished artist. If you look a the really big stars in the business, whether you like their work or not, they all have tremendous skill sets. All of them can accomplish their portraits from life. Today the artist has his back against the wall in this regard because clients refuse to sit today. They know all too often all the artist has to do is snap their picture and they are of the hook time-wise. However, a portrait artist worth his salt SHOULD be able to accomplish this.

[Alexandra Tyng]

These are great ideas, and great reminders. Thanks for posting them. The great thing about this Forum is that these subjects always seem to pop up just when I need a kick in the right place.

[Sharon Knettell]

I told my husband about this thread. He said IF they don't like the price and don't think it is worth it, tell them to do it themselves. Add that you will be by from time to time to help them out.

[Mischa Milosevic]

Joy, sorry for not responding sooner. Had problems with my laptop. It was infected with 29GB of zipped files and spy ware. Had to re-install everything.

From early childhood I knew no boundaries. Brought up in a country town, more in the country than the town, I experienced the joys of a farm and country life stile. Sure, while growing up, I envied the kids that lived in the city but these same kids envied me. Their plenty could not measure up to the simplicities and the small pleasures that a life in the county offers. I guess that is why now days we have commuters (we run to the city to work and right back out to the country in order to enjoy the peace an nature). Don't get me wrong the city life has its charm. I know for most of my adult life was spent in the city.

I raced cars, motorcycles (not professionally) and was quite wild according to todays standards. In the sumer of 1989 I sat on back of a motorcycle with a friend and not but a few blocks from my home the accident o-curd. Some young man with his car caused the accident and I and my friend ended-up in the Emergency ward. It tuck but a second at an intersection and my friend who was driving the bike ended up with a punctured lung and busted wrist. My friends life was in grave danger and the doctors had doubts whether I was to walk again. My spine was fractured. We did survive and I am walking again thank God but our life at least mine will never be the same. There are many thing in life that I enjoyed prier the accident which never will I be able to again. Honestly though, many a times I considered getting another bike but decided against it. I have come to realize that in life there are so many thing that are as exciting if not more than riding a bike. My younger brother has a K1100 and I do take it out for a spin when the urge is strong. Riding in a car can never be a substitute but I must measure the importance of life. I have come to realize that in the cage of a car I have a better chance of surviving in order to enjoying the simple things in life.

Joy, thank you for visiting my website. Yes, most all is done from life. I do enjoy copying some inspirational photos and also the works of the masters of old and masters of today. I find that I can learn much this way.

I am not sure how involved the pilers of Bad Homburg are in fund raising. I am sure they are and I curtainlly will take your advice. It will be my pleasure to help them along being that I have some experience in the humanitarian field. I know for a fact that Germany allocates millions each year for humanitarian aid and projects.

One of my draw backs is that I am just getting to know the German language and the area. So, I must work doubly hard if I plan to make a living from my art.

I have heard of Mary Kay and Tupperware but do not know of the marketing procedures. I do like Mary Kay's idea, your suggestion, of the unveiling part and will do my best to put it into effect when ever possible.

That is correct, "Portraits for everyone!"

Joy, thank you for being who you are and for sharing with us.

Mischa

p.s. how many posts you have now?

[Joy Thomas]

Originally Posted by Sharon Knettell

It is a very delicate balance the artist has to negotiate between the client and him or herself . Often the artist is poor and needs the commission badly. This puts the artist on the defensive both artistically and financially. I have noticed that we often explain our fees ad infinitum, as if we ourselves are guilty of charging SUCH an exorbitant fee. We all to often think it is a large fee vis-a-vis our own perspective. We often quake inwardly (at least I do) when coming in contact with extreme wealth, I don't mean Mercedes, I mean Bentleys and Rolls. Just give them the fee as confidently as you can, try NOT to bargain, it makes you look needy.

As always Sharon, your observations are always right on the money (oh! please do pardon the pun).

I must say, I wonder why artists are so nervous around people with what country folks call "folding money". I have a few quotes that help me keep perspective during my own meager business transactions:

Will Rogers (or was it Mark Twain?) once said "Rich people are very different from everyone else...they have more money."
I can't remember who said this one but it always makes me laugh and prevents me from acting subservient, "If I had a dog that acted that obsequious...I would shoot it."
Finally , I always keep this quote in mind when working with new or potential clients;

"Treat people as if they were what they ought to be, and you help them to become what they are capable of becoming." -Goethe-

As to cutting deals or bargaining...as a former horse trader, married to a dog trader, I'm always ready to make a deal. But these are the kinds of deals I like to make;
When I am commissioned to do a portrait, I will sometimes offer to paint a second, separate portrait of someone else at my "double figure in one painting fee" which is 50% more that the base fee. That way the client saves money while I increase my income from the commission contract by 50%.
I always offer my client a finder's fee of 10% if they will secure commissions for me. They rarely take the money...but it always prompts them to host an unveiling, make an introduction or offer some other sort of business advice to help me out. If they really make an effort on my behalf,succeed, and still won't accept the finder's fee...I will give them a framed drawing or little plein air painting as a thank you.
I have lots of other deals and bargaining chips...I just make sure they offer my client a chance to save money...while increasing my income beyond the original amount on the contract.