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[Steven Sweeney]

Gee, Marvin, you've outdone yourself.

Originally Posted by Marvin Mattelson

I think the bulk of those who choose to not participate here have no interest because there is just not much going on.

Then they're partly to blame, don't you think? Must be the same bunch who sit in front of the TV, don't vote, don't volunteer, and wouldn't think of mentoring without submitting a bill for services. The ones who sit in chairs, arms folded, and say "Entertain me. Learn me."

I also blame some of the moderators who let their own personal agendas get in the way.

Marvin, if you're going to champion the ideal portrait artist as a rebel, it ill serves your thesis to complain a few sentences later that some moderators have their own self-interest at heart, or that they have a "personal agenda." Is there anyone less interesting than someone who does NOT have a personal agenda? And anyway, do you not have your self-interest at heart? Of course you do.

Lucian Freud is a rebel. Traditionalists aren't. Nothing wrong with that, but no use conflating rebellion with rabble rousing.

If it ain't broke don't fix it. It's broke!

Yet you keep coming back. Is there nothing at all that you like about the Forum? If not, why the visits to the snoozefest? And why the contempt, without offering a single practical suggestion, save to bemoan the mediocrity of all other practitioners and to cite unspecified accepted "tenants" (who, after all, merely occupy apartments, though many do have personal agendas.)

How does this compare to the forum you offer on your website?

[Enzie Shahmiri]

I wasn't going to say anything further, but since I am the one who stirred the hornet's nest, I need to make another request.

Please let's not attack each other (moderators or members), the world is not perfect and neither are we. Although sad, but mistakes and bad judgments are a daily occurrence and part of being a human being.

The goal here is to come up with solutions to stop loosing people and to create a productive environment. Please let's all forget the past and focus on the future.

[Marvin Mattelson]

Steven, you had me at "you've outdone yourself." Then I read further.

Perhaps I should have stated that, in my opinion, those who aspire to be great portrait artists are rebels. A rebel is someone who questions the status quo and looks for better answers. You can't achieve greatness by doing what every one else does. Lucien Freud is not a rebel, he's an anarchist. Bad example. Nelson Shanks, who happens to be at the top of the current heap, is quite contentious. I don't agree with some of his ideas but I applaud his efforts to shake things up.

The point here being that the gist of this thread is, "why is the forum participation dwindling." I'm offering my point of view. Long winded diatribes in defense of the forum aren't going to put fannies in the seats. At least I have the guts to put out a point of view, be it right or wrong. What are your suggestions for improving participation, Steven?

Regarding moderators, their job is to moderate. Umpires at a baseball game may be lifelong fans of a team they are officiating but their job demands objectivity and a setting aside of personal bias and grudges.

As a poster my job is to state my point of view. My agenda is to open up the eyes of others with the end goal of bettering the lot for all of us. As an educator and a working portrait artist I say to educate others makes things better for all. Ignorance isn't bliss, it's servitude.

I see many artists here and at the conferences buying into a culture of mediocrity because they can't even fathom there can be more out there. Read Philip Hales book on Vermeer, written almost 100 years ago, and see what the great Boston artists felt about painting.

Paxton was actually quite chippy and his student Gammel felt in the long run it hurt him. I understand exactly where Paxton was coming from. When certain commonly accepted practices and ideas are never questioned it can become quite maddening, especially to those who can see that the emperor is indeed naked.

Reading the Hale book was very eye opening. They knock many of the biggies of representational art. Reading this book has encouraged me to speak my mind. My agenda is to speak for the greater good.

How about if some of those of you who don't normally post chime in here.

[Cynthia Daniel]

One of the things I sometimes say to new artists on the main site, don't just sit back and wait for something to happen. Be interested in your site, talk about it, make changes to it periodically to keep it fresh. I said this after I noticed that some people would get a web site and then just sit back and wait for something to happen instead of being proactive. And then they would not understand that nothing happened. I think there may be a similar situation here.

Any group is only as good as those who participate. And, I think those who would like the Forum to be a better place should be proactive about helping that happen.

And in any situation in life, a person can sit back and blame, saying it's the other guys fault. Is it the fault of the Board or moderators that some people have left? In some cases probably. Is it the fault of some members who have chosen to be attacking that some members have left/ Probably. But, the higher road is to take positive action and make positive contributions and not get into the blame game.

Does the Forum ownership have the right to define the parameters for the Forum - to say what it will be and not be? Absolutely. Just because this Forum is displayed publicly for all to see, there is no obligation to be all things to all people.

As defined previously, this Forum is about traditional portraiture - as is the main site. This Forum is not intended to exist by itself - it is intended as a reflection of the main site. It's purpose is not even primarily teaching - it is for information exchange. If teaching results from that, that's great.

By the way, rebellion and diplomacy do not have to be mutually exclusive. Rebellion and tolerance are not necessarily mutually exclusive either.

I think when there have been cat fights in the past that have sent people running for the hills, it is usually as a result of "my way is the one and only true way." Seldom is there only one way to do something and it's an attitude that will scare people and make them run for the hills. Sometimes you just have to agree to disagree.

There are the forever students. There are the forever teachers. How about if everyone were a bit student and a bit teacher?